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	Comments on: Good disagreement	</title>
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	<description>National News from the Anglican Church of Canada</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:04:15 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Tony Houghton		</title>
		<link>https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-657</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tony Houghton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2017 18:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anglicanjournal.com/?p=150651#comment-657</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-620&quot;&gt;Rod Gillis&lt;/a&gt;.

&quot;tension between a “beloved” church community and the church as a source of strife&quot; The church will always cause the world strife for the world ,by and large , does not like what the church has to say &quot;If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world,..&quot; We are not so much called  to &quot;reform&quot; but to &quot;conform&quot; not to the mores or standards of this world but the standards of God. We are to conform to the standards of the  god we follow, either the God of the bible or the god of this world. There can be no unity  At the rate we are going we have the prospect of reforming God out of the church and we end up with the condition that was found in the church of Laodicea ,where Christ was on the outside knocking to get in.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-620">Rod Gillis</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;tension between a “beloved” church community and the church as a source of strife&#8221; The church will always cause the world strife for the world ,by and large , does not like what the church has to say &#8220;If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world,..&#8221; We are not so much called  to &#8220;reform&#8221; but to &#8220;conform&#8221; not to the mores or standards of this world but the standards of God. We are to conform to the standards of the  god we follow, either the God of the bible or the god of this world. There can be no unity  At the rate we are going we have the prospect of reforming God out of the church and we end up with the condition that was found in the church of Laodicea ,where Christ was on the outside knocking to get in.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rod Gillis		</title>
		<link>https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-620</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rod Gillis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Aug 2017 12:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anglicanjournal.com/?p=150651#comment-620</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Archbishop Hiltz, &quot;good dis agreement&quot; certainly has a place in the hierarchy of values; but it tends to be a value especially lauded within the church as institution. It can be in tension with the value of justice for individuals within the institution. An over emphasis on good agreement may result in a false moral equivalency between church as doer of justice and church as oppressor.  The notion of &quot;good disagreement&quot; must always be tested against questions about who has power or privilege or entrenched interests in a given conversation. 

Fred often refers to our &quot;beloved church&quot; --a phrase with  a kind of Johannine ring. Love for one&#039;s community of faith is appropriate; but it is also important to see the tension between a &quot;beloved&quot; church community and the church as a source of strife. One discerns that tension even in the Johannine literature.

What we are learning in Canada is that  true peace within the household of God requires truth telling. The church is experienced as beloved at some levels; but it has been/is experienced, both without and within, as antisemitic, misogynist, racist, homophobic, and class conscious.  The ongoing task of reformation of the church requires that we face its past and present injustices candidly, that we not accept unjust practices and oppressive rhetoric  as simply two differing opinions on equal footing.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Archbishop Hiltz, &#8220;good dis agreement&#8221; certainly has a place in the hierarchy of values; but it tends to be a value especially lauded within the church as institution. It can be in tension with the value of justice for individuals within the institution. An over emphasis on good agreement may result in a false moral equivalency between church as doer of justice and church as oppressor.  The notion of &#8220;good disagreement&#8221; must always be tested against questions about who has power or privilege or entrenched interests in a given conversation. </p>
<p>Fred often refers to our &#8220;beloved church&#8221; &#8211;a phrase with  a kind of Johannine ring. Love for one&#8217;s community of faith is appropriate; but it is also important to see the tension between a &#8220;beloved&#8221; church community and the church as a source of strife. One discerns that tension even in the Johannine literature.</p>
<p>What we are learning in Canada is that  true peace within the household of God requires truth telling. The church is experienced as beloved at some levels; but it has been/is experienced, both without and within, as antisemitic, misogynist, racist, homophobic, and class conscious.  The ongoing task of reformation of the church requires that we face its past and present injustices candidly, that we not accept unjust practices and oppressive rhetoric  as simply two differing opinions on equal footing.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Touy Houghton		</title>
		<link>https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-562</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Touy Houghton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Aug 2017 20:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anglicanjournal.com/?p=150651#comment-562</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You can not sacrifice truth on the alter of unity. Christianity is not a club by which we decide standards and mores by majority vote. God sets the standards ,God has clearly declared His standards and mores in His word and we as follower of Him are to conform to the standards He has set,&quot;Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.&quot; We are called to be Holy not to follow the standards set by the world.As Augustine is attributed to have said &quot;In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.. There can be no compromise on truth.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You can not sacrifice truth on the alter of unity. Christianity is not a club by which we decide standards and mores by majority vote. God sets the standards ,God has clearly declared His standards and mores in His word and we as follower of Him are to conform to the standards He has set,&#8221;Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.&#8221; We are called to be Holy not to follow the standards set by the world.As Augustine is attributed to have said &#8220;In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love.. There can be no compromise on truth.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Joan Alexander		</title>
		<link>https://anglicanjournal.com/good-disagreement/#comment-521</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joan Alexander]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2017 22:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://anglicanjournal.com/?p=150651#comment-521</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, Fred, there has been a quietness around change to the marriage canon to include same-gender people in the Anglican Church of Canada lately.
Do you think it is because so many of the LGBTQ+ have left the church? 
Do you wonder if, when many celebrated the change to Canada&#039;s law that made same-gender marriage legal, people stayed in the church and received &quot;blessings&quot; in a few Anglican parishes, that they would settle down...continuing to tithe, serve and support the ACC? 
Do you feel the exhaustion deep in your bones about this matter and wish that it would just go away...not wanting to face another Synod where the &quot;good disagreement&quot; is even on the agenda?
Remember me, Fred? 
I left the church when I came out. 
I came back when I fell in love with an ACC priest. We were civilly married and &quot;blessed&quot;.
I am a Spiritual Director who offers safe and welcoming space to all - including those who have left the church because of this canon debate.
I struggle with my label(s). Am I a Christian? Am I an Anglican? How can I sit in a pew listening to the very words of scripture that others interpret to exclude me? And, daily, I wonder why I should. Fred, do you wonder to?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Fred, there has been a quietness around change to the marriage canon to include same-gender people in the Anglican Church of Canada lately.<br />
Do you think it is because so many of the LGBTQ+ have left the church?<br />
Do you wonder if, when many celebrated the change to Canada&#8217;s law that made same-gender marriage legal, people stayed in the church and received &#8220;blessings&#8221; in a few Anglican parishes, that they would settle down&#8230;continuing to tithe, serve and support the ACC?<br />
Do you feel the exhaustion deep in your bones about this matter and wish that it would just go away&#8230;not wanting to face another Synod where the &#8220;good disagreement&#8221; is even on the agenda?<br />
Remember me, Fred?<br />
I left the church when I came out.<br />
I came back when I fell in love with an ACC priest. We were civilly married and &#8220;blessed&#8221;.<br />
I am a Spiritual Director who offers safe and welcoming space to all &#8211; including those who have left the church because of this canon debate.<br />
I struggle with my label(s). Am I a Christian? Am I an Anglican? How can I sit in a pew listening to the very words of scripture that others interpret to exclude me? And, daily, I wonder why I should. Fred, do you wonder to?</p>
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